tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post2795357370867646975..comments2023-10-21T05:40:55.660-04:00Comments on man with black hat: Critical Mass: Life After "Te Deum"David L Alexanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-80325010833050643072007-08-21T18:33:00.000-04:002007-08-21T18:33:00.000-04:00"I have offered both temporal and monetary assista...<I>"I have offered both temporal and monetary assistance, but am open to other suggestions."</I><BR/><BR/>Invite other parishioners to write your pastor. But be aware that people are using an inaccurate text of the motu proprio to make policy. Remember, what matters is not the English text -- an official version of which DOES NOT EXIST -- but the LATIN!!!<BR/><BR/>I am indebted to Father Zuhlsdorf, whose column in The Wanderer dated August 17 last, provides an excellent analysis of the papal decree. I highly recommend getting a copy, and following his every online utterance on this subject at <A HREF="http://wdtprs.com/blog/" REL="nofollow">http://wdtprs.com/blog/</A><BR/><BR/>"In paroeciis, ubi coetus fidelium traditioni liturgicae antecedenti adhaerentium continenter exsistit..." The unofficial text being circulated says: "In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition..." A more literal translation says: "In parishes, where there is continuously present a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition..." Zuhlsdorf brings two words to our attention here; the noun "coetus" and the adverb "continenter." "Coetus" refers to a "group," but the number is not specific. Zuhlsdorf says, "I think there is canonical precedent for as few as five to be a coetus." The way I read this, it effectively refers to a quorum, which is itself undefined universally. "continenter" means "continuously" or "consistently." Respectfully point out to your pastor, if need be, that the text does not say "stabiliter," which means "in a stable way."<BR/><BR/>I don't know in what diocese you live, so I don't know the local situation. But as I mentioned, don't expect things to happen right away, or dramatically when they do. The willingness of the priest to effectively "reinvent the wheel" for a small group is certainly possible, given the growing number of priests who are flocking to training seminars for the Old Mass. Be patient. Pray hard. And stay in touch.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-911496163278299462007-08-21T16:44:00.000-04:002007-08-21T16:44:00.000-04:00Fascinating Post... It made me mad as I read it, ...Fascinating Post... It made me mad as I read it, and then I relaized how right it was on many points. I am hardly a "rad-trad" but I know what I want. I have been making a pleasant but sincere effort to get my priest to add an "old" mass to the shedule. I have offered both temporal and monetary assistance, but am open to other suggestions.Tom S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02598404623048927550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-23839991318094601412007-07-20T19:48:00.000-04:002007-07-20T19:48:00.000-04:00I have met many so-called "traditionalists" and mo...I have met many so-called "traditionalists" and most have been strictly complainers. I worked very hard to get an indult mass for a group in the late 1980's. After we got it, they STILL complained. I heard arguements over some pretty trivial things, too. A lot of these people think they know better than the Pope!<BR/><BR/> A good dose of humility and gratefulness regarding the recent motu proprio will go a long way. Our Pope is trying to heal old wounds. Hopefully, the "traditionalists" will lead by example, not by complaining.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-70474340842439577592007-07-18T21:22:00.000-04:002007-07-18T21:22:00.000-04:00"Cerebella has a right to be unhappy with some Bis...<I>"Cerebella has a right to be unhappy with some Bishops..."</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, I know.<BR/><BR/>It was the decision of yours truly to focus on an aspect of implementing this decree that has been largely overlooked, but which if ignored could prolong the agony of those who would honor Catholic tradition (which would include yours truly).<BR/><BR/>There has been no shortage of bandwidth at "St Blog's" devoted to the mishandling of this decree by some bishops. Indeed, the third and fourth paragraphs of this piece were devoted to such mishandling, so that there would no mistake as to the author's awareness thereof. Obviously it wasn't enough.<BR/><BR/>So here now, in the interests of charity as well as clarity, are the paragraphs in question, in boldface type:<BR/><BR/><B>Sometimes, even when you spell things out in specific language, there is at least one person who cannot resist the uncontrollable urge to put their own "spin" on the matter at hand. Most bishops, at least in the USA, have received the papal decree warmly. All who have already allowed the classical use have issued statements affirming this, as well as its continuance. They also generally state how they do not expect the general way of celebrating Mass to change in their jurisdiction. And they're right; for most people, it will not change anything. Here's the thing; the decree was not issued to determine what would not change, but -- well, duh! -- what would.<BR/><BR/>Some dioceses attempt to place additional requirements, even as they know perfectly well, that as a matter of general norm, a lower authority cannot restrict that which a higher authority allows. This is especially the case with a motu proprio, which by its very nature, is to be interpreted broadly, as opposed to narrowly. In one diocese, a statement prohibits its use during the Paschal Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Easter Vigil), when in fact this applies only to private Masses, which wouldn't be allowed for those occasions anyway, regardless of which set of books is used. Another bishop intends to conduct what amounts to competency exams, to ensure that the priests are capable of celebrating the classical usage properly. This is understandable, were it not for this bishop's predisposition on related matters, not to mention the rather begrudging tone of his official statement. But the worst case, is the one who has even called for his priests to get permission, which is specifically ruled out (beyond that of pastoral guidance) in the text of the papal decree.</B><BR/><BR/>The reader will please note that I do not use the term "well, duh!" in reference to the faithful. I trust that will not require an explanation.<BR/><BR/>(Whew!) Any questions?David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-47475849057029579702007-07-18T20:23:00.000-04:002007-07-18T20:23:00.000-04:00The examples I cited (...three steps, choir placem...The examples I cited (...three steps, choir placement, etc.) were a DIRECT quote from a Traddie with whom I spoke over the weekend.<BR/><BR/>Cerebella has a right to be unhappy with some Bishops. So do a lot of people.<BR/><BR/>So what?<BR/><BR/>Soldier on, Cerebella.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-80237005313214559992007-07-18T11:29:00.000-04:002007-07-18T11:29:00.000-04:00"I hadn't reviewed your archives. However, since t...<I>"I hadn't reviewed your archives. However, since the news wires are picking these kinds of criticisms of traditional Catholics up, I think they're as detrimental to our cause as are the grumps themselves."</I><BR/><BR/>You barely read THIS post, or you'd know that I also discussed bishops and their spokespeople who were reading into the decree things that were not there. I went so far as to ask one to clarify his position, and people still jump all over him. Wow, that was a big help, guys. As to whether one factor is "as detrimental to our cause" as any other is a matter of some conjecture. My position on this, or any other subject, cannot be judged on the basis of one post, let alone one paragraph.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-15695287320913427092007-07-18T10:34:00.000-04:002007-07-18T10:34:00.000-04:00OK, fair enough - I came to your blog for the firs...OK, fair enough - I came to your blog for the first time through the Dad29 blog (http://dad29.blogspot.com/2007/07/traddies-and-motu-proprio.html) , which post I found on a news wire and so you're right - I hadn't reviewed your archives. However, since the news wires are picking these kinds of criticisms of traditional Catholics up, I think they're as detrimental to our cause as are the grumps themselves. <BR/><BR/>You know there are PLENTY of us who have prayed, cried, sacrificed, been obedient and are being reasonable about the implementation of summorum pontificum. But that's not news. <BR/><BR/>How does it further the cause to publicize the sins of other trads, especially in such caustic terms as Dad29 used (linking to YOUR post)?<BR/><BR/>Father Z gave us rules of engagement for the aftermath of the motu but he was referring to our treatment of liberals; maybe he should post some rules regarding the way we treat fellow trads. Love covers a multitude of sins - it doesn't expose them.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-24837160529724797382007-07-17T23:08:00.000-04:002007-07-17T23:08:00.000-04:00Cerebella, thou hast writ:"So what if some Trads a...Cerebella, thou hast writ:<BR/><BR/><I>"So what if some Trads are cranky; would you, just possibly, be cranky too if you had been in their situation?"</I><BR/><BR/>I can assure you that I <B>AM</B> in their situation. I have been for many years. <BR/><BR/>I am 52 years old. As a young man, I almost single-handedly fought liturgical nonsense brought on by the Jesuits of Georgetown. (I won.) I have served for the Old Mass for over a decade. I'm entering training as a master of ceremonies. I'm working to get a priest to come to our diocese to train other young men as masters of ceremonies. I serve priests in my own locale who are not unlike yours in their zeal. But the practical side of this issue needs to be adequately addressed, if tradition is to flourish. I fear it has not been.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying those you represent don't have a right to complain. I'm saying it does not serve them. When they assign ill motives to those against whom it is unproven, they lose potential allies, who could well be converted. (I know; I was one of those too.)<BR/><BR/>They're very quick to cast out those who aren't "trad" enough for them, I can assure you of that as well. Like I need their damn permission to attend the Mass I remember from my childhood, or their sanction for how it was "back in the day."<BR/><BR/>Some of them have got a helluva lot of nerve blaming bishops for not being loyal to Rome, having spent years trashing John Paul II. For whatever his shortcomings as a mortal man, he was a major reason they had the Old Mass at all. He was known to complain out loud about how bishops would not listen to him. Not even Benedict has been spared their wrath. A move this decisive and far-reaching was the result of a very careful and calculating effort. Some of the most vocal of them bitched about him, or provided a platform for renegade bishops who did the same.<BR/><BR/>They're more than cranky. They're not very clever. They need to learn how to BE clever, and they need to learn soon.<BR/><BR/>And if you doubt my devotion to Catholic tradition, I suggest you go through my archives from the past year. I know where I stand, and I daresay it is with no apologies to one who hides behind an alias.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-52286448261325298622007-07-17T22:17:00.000-04:002007-07-17T22:17:00.000-04:00David, It is fascinating to read this from one who...David, It is fascinating to read this from one who is far more familiar with the extraordinary rite than I am. Maybe I should know this, but how old are you?? I've always had the impression that you're close to my age (48) but you know way more than I do. I am hoping that I can, once again, attend a Mass in the Tridentine style (rite?), whatever. Actually, I could do it now if I weren't so bloody lazy--8:00AM downtown Wichita. Hoping for a few more celebrations around town this fall.<BR/><BR/>I do think that you are right about what the laity must be willing to contribute. It's just that we rarely think about such things. If Catholics have a nasty flaw, it is expecting Father to do what we want, how we want it, and when we want it. We need to pray more and stop treating our priests like sacramental vending machines! God Bless. MMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-58276543082543232612007-07-17T21:48:00.000-04:002007-07-17T21:48:00.000-04:00Sir, in our diocese there are three young priests ...Sir, in our diocese there are three young priests who are working six day weeks and fairly turning cartwheels over the chance to say the Old Rite both publicly and privately. In addition, there is an older priest who is equally excited about it, having been denied the privilege of saying it for years; these priests are all working out a rotation so that they can meet their regular obligations and still say the Mass they love.<BR/><BR/>In addition, there are two seminarians in internship and one newly ordained young priest receiving training in Latin. <BR/><BR/>All these priests are overjoyed to be training altar servers in addition to everything else.<BR/><BR/>So what if some Trads are cranky; would you, just possibly, be cranky too if you had been in their situation? Yes, they should be charitable but that goes both ways. For 40 years now, no one has forced anyone to attend or say a Tridentine Mass but those who love the Mass have been forced to foregoe it or make very difficult sacrifices, sometimes impossible sacrifices, for the privilege of worshipping God in the rite that has nourished the Church for centuries. <BR/><BR/>Bishops have not been noted for their obedience to Rome lately, have they? So why wouldn't Traditional-minded Catholics be chary at this point? If you will extend to them the same charity you demand that they extend, then you'll have to concede that they need time to decompress and that they have good reason to be on edge.<BR/><BR/>By the way, given the booming numbers of seminarians in traditional seminaries, the priest shortage will not be an issue in a few years so relax.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com