tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post801646646649660271..comments2023-10-21T05:40:55.660-04:00Comments on man with black hat: The Latin Mass: Why You Can’t Have ItDavid L Alexanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-18397435574278287952017-03-21T14:36:01.641-04:002017-03-21T14:36:01.641-04:00Thanks for the great post.
I converted along with...Thanks for the great post. <br />I converted along with my wife and 6 kids in 2010, so my perspective isn't that of a grizzled trad who has a lot of battle wounds. <br /><br />As soon as the FSSP came to town, we went there. So availability did create demand for us. To be honest, there is no way I could go back to the O.F. mass. I didn't anticipate that realization.<br /><br />Things are worse than I thought in the Church.david meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312094382712134522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-44785955867949471162016-09-14T16:27:30.763-04:002016-09-14T16:27:30.763-04:00Marie LaSalle, you wrote:
"You can't jus...Marie LaSalle, you wrote:<br /><br /><i>"You can't just teach a priest to 'say the Latin mass'. You have to teach him to know Latin. I am not sure that that is the best use of a contemporary seminarians time."</i><br /><br />It is the best use of their time if it's required by canon law ...<br /><br /><i>"The program of priestly formation is to provide that students not only are carefully taught their native language but also understand Latin well and have a suitable understanding of those foreign languages which seem necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of pastoral ministry."</i> (CIC 249)<br /><br />... and if it's necessary to understand the theology of Thomas Aquinas, as he is best understood in the original language, and is to this day the most significant factor in a seminarian's theological formation.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-18912176348244327542016-01-11T21:00:14.049-05:002016-01-11T21:00:14.049-05:00When the mass was commonly celebrated in Latin, se... When the mass was commonly celebrated in Latin, seminarians studied Latin for 6 to 8 years so that they could be fluent in the proper of the mass as well as the common of the mass. It doesn't make sense to have priests reciting words when they have no idea what they mean. You can't just teach a priest to "say the Latin mass". You have to teach him to know Latin. I am not sure that that is the best use of a contemporary seminarians time.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10253275201934023206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-18927369992533349022016-01-10T22:00:07.295-05:002016-01-10T22:00:07.295-05:00By happenstance I discovered this article and appl...By happenstance I discovered this article and applaud you for your logic and ability to frame a discussion absent of emotional persuasion, with a good dose of humor thrown in. Thank you for taking the time to write this and for all the responses you have made to the comments. Truly impressive. In our diocese, we are currently attempting to pray for and work with our bishop to convince him of the need for the FSSP to be invited in. Reading your article at such a time has proved most beneficial to me, and I just wanted to thank you. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01213756917497517964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-29599429133333536842014-07-07T16:31:47.029-04:002014-07-07T16:31:47.029-04:00I'm 21 years old and was never taught that the...I'm 21 years old and was never taught that there was an alternative to mass in English until I started reading Catholic blogs a few years ago. I think a big reason for the lack of demand is that teens don't even know that the TLM exists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-8765105773831555282014-07-07T16:19:51.687-04:002014-07-07T16:19:51.687-04:00Oops. Typo:
A sentence above should read as follo...Oops. Typo:<br /><br />A sentence above should read as follows: <br /><br />"But it's also long been clear that some chancery officials simply are resistant to any presence of the FSSP or ICK even when all the obvious prerequisites <b>ARE</b> met."<br /><br />Obviously, that spurious "not" changes the whole meaning of the sentence.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-59548356815218990052014-07-07T16:12:56.685-04:002014-07-07T16:12:56.685-04:00Hello Davidm
""Running out of places&qu...Hello Davidm<br /><br /><i>""Running out of places" can mean anything. Is it a lack of demand? Is it a lack of a suitable location? Is there an accord to be reached regarding their responsibility of stewardship to the diocese?"</i><br /><br />I can't speak to *every* diocese, but I think it is no secret that there are a number of dioceses which have been resistant to accepting an Ecclesia Dei society into their diocese on any basis, let alone to have an entire parish to run. It's also no secret that these dioceses seem located disproportionately on the coasts. <br /><br />To take it closer to home, it's also not much of a secret that there has been more than one approach to a major archdiocese across the river, the leadership of which has made clear that it is not open to such a offer. And the question here is not about demand, i.e., a large enough group of the faithful to support such a mission, given the very robust attendance at the two regular Sunday TLM's in the inner core of said archdiocese, and the very robust attendance at "one-off" TLM's scheduled at various points in said archdiocese. Nor is there a lack of "support infrastructure, " i.e., lack of trained servers and scholas (though there can never be enough of such things). <br /><br />There are undeniably locales where demand is weaker than demanding trads would like to admit, and an ordinary is not unjustified in moving more slowly. But it's also long been clear that some chancery officials simply are resistant to any presence of the FSSP or ICK even when all the obvious prerequisites are not met. Sometimes this is because of vehement ideological or theological opposition to the old Mass. Sometimes it's from bureaucratic inertia and distrust of anything "outside the box," or a community they would have less control over. Sometimes, it's because those asking for it are not always their own best allies. Sometimes it's a combination of all of the above. <br /><br />And sometimes, it takes a change of administration for it to happen. This is certainly what happened in many places (like the Midwest) where that posture has changed. I hope it won't be necessary here as well. I hope that, eventually, the successful arrival of the Ecclesia Dei societies in many other dioceses will help ease fears that they are some kind of an enemy to be feared. Because they really aren't.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-19800195917560551502014-07-07T14:39:51.615-04:002014-07-07T14:39:51.615-04:00Ian:
I strongly object to bitching about such mat...Ian:<br /><br />I strongly object to bitching about such matters, and so was compelled to refer to it as such. <br /><br />That said, your objection is noted, as is the fact that even Our Lord Himself used such language, as "evil brood of vipers" was a rough equivalent in the ancient world. And, as I am His disciple … well, what can I tell ya?<br /><br />Now, if you want some real potty-mouth, go to the Patheos Catholic Channel, where devotees of Catholic new media can't seem to get enough of it.<br /><br />Stay in touch.<br /><br />DLADavid L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-70085627124712104282014-07-07T14:18:09.946-04:002014-07-07T14:18:09.946-04:00I strongly object to the use of the offensive term...I strongly object to the use of the offensive term "bitching." Please promote the sacred without vulgar language. You are a disciple of Our Lord.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-76855485169471263782014-01-02T08:34:46.769-05:002014-01-02T08:34:46.769-05:00(begin part two) Christ Himself was deserted by el...(begin part two) Christ Himself was deserted by eleven of the first twelve bishops, and their successors have been running scared ever since. Francis of Assisi was rejected from his own order, and spent his final years surrounded only by a few loyal followers. Alphonsus de Ligouri was rejected from his order as well, and was forbidden to say Mass publicly for a time, and he was a bishop. Padre Pio was basically under house arrest for most of his priestly life. The minute word got to Rome about the stagnate, they totally freaked, and that's how they handled it. Bonaventure Broderick was Archbishop of Havana, Cuba, in the early 20th century. He was supposed to be reassigned, but found himself lost in the Vatican paperwork, and was out of a job. He spent most of his adult life running a gas station in upstate New York, until Cardinal Spellman finally found him, and made him an auxiliary bishop in his final years.<br /><br />All were rejected by their Mother's agents. None of them left Her.<br /><br />Those who prefer the Traditional Mass do not do so out of a sense of superiority; quite the opposite, in fact. It demands more of them, and they know they must demands more of themselves, including recourse to the mercy of God.<br /><br />If you're looking to relocate to another part of the country, and want a place where the Faith is proclaimed with absolute certainty, there are three places I can recommend; 1) Arlington, Virginia, 2) Lincoln, Nebraska, and 3) Madison, Wisconsin. The midwest is friendlier, and the pace of life more moderate, but the job opportunities in northern Virginia are much better (even though you'll pay more than twice as much for a place to live, which is why we're all so overpaid).<br /><br />Write me privately if you want to know more. "manwithblackhat at yahoo dot com." You know where to find me. Stay in touch.<br /><br />DLADavid L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-23520471983111114082014-01-02T08:34:18.868-05:002014-01-02T08:34:18.868-05:00Jill Smith:
Thank you for writing.
There was a t...Jill Smith:<br /><br />Thank you for writing.<br /><br />There was a time when I could have written this, and but for a turn of events in the near future, I could again. Jean-Paul Sartre was right when he said that "hell is other people." Because most people are jerks, and the biggest jerks are the ones who don't know it. They have a venue by which to make themselves conspicuous. As one Catholic publisher once told me, "some people have something to say, while others have to say something."<br /><br />If a protestant were to read any of this, and were at all honest with themselves, they would know that the thousands of protestant sects were formed over history as a result of less than what you read here. Why then don't the Catholic jerks just leave?<br /><br />Hans Urs von Balthassar once said why he did not leave the Church:<br /><br /><i>"Because it is the only chance to escape from oneself, from this curse of one's importance, of one's own gravity, from the role which is identified with my own person, so that if I lost my role I would end up falling in love with my person: to escape from all this without becoming estranged from man, because God has become man, not in a vacuum but in the community of the Church. I do not doubt for a moment that God's incarnation is intended for all men and that he is sufficiently God in order to reach all whom he will. But he has set up, in the middle of the history of humanity with all its terrors and hells, a marriage bed, splendid and untouchable -- it is portrayed in the Song of Songs -- and even the endless problems of the Church cannot create a fog so thick that it cannot from time to time be penetrated by the light of love which shines from the saints: a love which is naive, which cannot be taken over and built into any program.<br /><br />"There are vocations in which men are called into the sphere of the fire. They always demand the whole person. Those who have said 'no' remain marked. They burn, but they become cynical and destructive, they smell each other out and hold together. It makes no matter whether they officially leave the Church or remain within her. Anyone with some facility for discerning spirits can recognize them.<br /><br />"It is up to me, up to us, to see that the Church comes closer to that which in reality she is."</i><br /><br />For my part, if I am convinced that the Church is my only chance of eternal life, and assurance against eternal damnation, I have no where else to go, and frankly, neither do you.<br /><br />And we are not alone … (end part one)David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-37730634751395610902014-01-02T03:50:16.918-05:002014-01-02T03:50:16.918-05:00I am deeply discouraged and saddened by the fighti...I am deeply discouraged and saddened by the fighting and the bitterness I hear from BOTH sides. I have been struggling with the faith for sometime. I go to BOTH masses and I have been rejected by BOTH sides. Latin for going to the English and English for going to the Latin! It hurts and it is confusing. What am suppose to do? I am trying to do what Christ would be pleased with and I do not know where that is when both sides are suppose to be family but one pulls me in one direction and one pulls me in another. It is like 2 parents fighting b/c they cannot agree, they cannot see the truth and the good, so they divorce. I just want to love Christ, but where can I look if people in the church he established are always bickering and fighting over this issue of the Mass? I can look to the The saints, yes, and Christ himself, but what about the people in the 21st century who are followers of Christ our fellow brother and sisters can he not be found in them? Where is the love and heart of CHRIST if it cannot be seen in his bride? If it cannot be seen in those who truly want to love him? It is about HIM right? Not about me or you or who is "better" or who knows more about the technicalities of church rubrics? I would think if you really want the heart of Christ humility would need to be sought and truth would have to be sought. Once you accept this you want to worship Christ with love and respect. I Read this article b/c I happened to be looking for a parish in a new city I may be moving to and this popped up. I do not usually read or respond to bloggers but I thought maybe there is a soul out there who may really love Jesus and really care and pray that I do not leave the church b/c this article by who ever wrote it was so disheartening to me it just pushed me closer to the exit door of the Catholic church. What if a protestant was reading this? What if others who are struggling with their faith like me are reading this? Why would they be encouraged to become a Catholic or stay a Catholic? No can get along and work towards the love of Christ, which I know can often be tough love - a crucifixtion. The words and the attitude between the sides can sound so arrogant, political,technical, hateful, bitter and pharisaical (my spelling is bad but my heart is sincere). I have had Lutheran friends with differences who were better examples to me. I am not perfect and seek the love and support of my spiritual family on this journey to Christ and heaven and I hear discord and hatred. Just broken hearted. What would Christ want? What does he deserve? I know I deserve nothing and he deserves all of our love. Where is the unity, the peace the gentleness, the strength the love, the holiness? It is draining to hear everyone fight.I thought maybe I would find something encouraging while on my journey and struggling, but instead I feel as if I just wasted my time only to become discouraged. Why should it bother "Fred" if "Dor's" believes she is loving Christ by going to the english mass? And Vice Versa. Aren't we all as Christians just trying to do the best we can. It would be so peaceful, harmonious and probably bring great strength to the world and others if we were all united and on the same page. I can think of one Catholic who was a good example to me in this time period ,she became a Carmelite nun. Please pray for me that I do not walk out of the church, even though it looks like such a mess. I will pray for you! JMJ Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11817530214417305022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-33098860600054385962014-01-02T02:56:19.463-05:002014-01-02T02:56:19.463-05:00After reading this blog, hearing everybody fightin...After reading this blog, hearing everybody fighting about who's right and who's better from BOTH sides sadly,My face is being turned away from Catholicism. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11817530214417305022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-30649540529282968272013-02-27T13:32:34.882-05:002013-02-27T13:32:34.882-05:00The FSSP is not allowed in Boston, i.e. Cardinal S...The FSSP is not allowed in Boston, i.e. Cardinal Sean does not want to invite them in.Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17970851228593550726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-12657268856182074402012-09-27T11:56:20.569-04:002012-09-27T11:56:20.569-04:00Stephen:
Thank you for writing.
"Running ou...Stephen:<br /><br />Thank you for writing.<br /><br />"Running out of places" can mean anything. Is it a lack of demand? Is it a lack of a suitable location? Is there an accord to be reached regarding their responsibility of stewardship to the diocese?<br /><br />I refer you to the section on supply, where it begins: "I know what you're thinking ..."David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-50981556531254536702012-09-27T11:33:21.951-04:002012-09-27T11:33:21.951-04:00Good article!
A quibble: FSSP is running out of ...Good article!<br /><br />A quibble: FSSP is running out of places to send its priests, and have not been let into most large cities.Stephen Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13301884569989243932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-44798060580565390492012-09-18T15:43:42.988-04:002012-09-18T15:43:42.988-04:00Hello David,
No problem.
I particularly apprecia...Hello David,<br /><br />No problem.<br /><br />I particularly appreciated your point to traddies to "lose the attitude." I have been going to TLM communities in several different cities for about eleven years now...and I am saddened to say, it's a problem. Not everywhere, to be sure. But in some places, yes. <br /><br />Traddies have put up with an awful lot down through the years, from recalcitrant bishops, priests and liturgists. In some places it's still worth your career prospects to offer even an occasional private TLM. The anger and resentments are understandable. But it's not helpful to us. <br /><br />I make it a point to thank my priests who celebrate the traditional mass, especially when they are doing it as a one-off to help out a beleaguered regular celebrant. And I've begun to make it a point to start serving. The return of the TLM will be led by priests, in the end (I believe that supply will create its own demand); but we in the laity can make that task a lot easier or a lot harder on them. If you haven't thanked your TLM celebrant priest lately, take time to do so. And if you haven't helped materially, now may be the time to do so. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-60111748403820159592012-09-18T15:16:32.435-04:002012-09-18T15:16:32.435-04:00Athelstane:
Thanks for catching that century thin...Athelstane:<br /><br />Thanks for catching that century thing. I fixed it. I agree about Pope Damasus, that one could argue that, but I gave Gregory the benefit of the doubt, for the usual reasons that one argues back, and that some people refer to it as the "Gregorian Rite" for that reason.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-13754227825514983362012-09-18T14:59:16.305-04:002012-09-18T14:59:16.305-04:00Hello David,
A great post.
Just one niggle: Greg...Hello David,<br /><br />A great post.<br /><br />Just one niggle: Gregory the Great reigned at the end of the sixth century, not the fifth. <br /><br />Though you could argue that the traditional mass dates back even further than ca. 600, back to the pontificate of Pope Damasus in the 4th century...Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-36262988367607785032012-09-18T14:11:31.430-04:002012-09-18T14:11:31.430-04:00Carolyn, you wrote:
"If you prefer Chocolate...Carolyn, you wrote:<br /><br /><i>"If you prefer Chocolate then you need to step up and make Chocolate happen, and stop bothering those who prefer vanilla. You present it as though the difference is simply fashion."</i><br /><br />I'm afraid you missed the point of the article by a considerable margin. I made absolutely no reference to the relative merits of one form of the Mass over the other. I simply gave practical reasons for limited availability of the Traditional Mass, and what the faithful can do to make the most of the situation. My analysis was the result of conversations with priests and emcees from various parts of the country, and my own experience as well.<br /><br />I am a cradle Catholic, a product of 12 years of Catholic schools during the 60s and early 70s, will be 58 years old by year's end, and read entirely too much for my own good. Do you really believe I am unaware of dysfunctional clergy, or essentially Protestant attitudes towards the nature of the Mass? I invite you to <i>"read it again. Slowly."</i>David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-466316530030172902012-09-18T09:01:37.009-04:002012-09-18T09:01:37.009-04:00You views are understandable and observations are ...You views are understandable and observations are quite accurate. <br />I do however disagree with some of your assessment and conclusion.<br /><br />So its like different flavors of ice cream? The conventional N.O. Mass is like vanilla and TLM is like Chocolate. If you prefer Chocolate then you need to step up and make Chocolate happen, and stop bothering those who prefer vanilla. You present it as though the difference is simply fashion.<br />TLM is less prone to true liturgical abuse, and this is why some seek it. <br /> <br />True, there are sinner and saints in all the pews. There are also clergy that are hostile to tradition of any sort and deliberately reject the sacrificial nature of Mass. Mass for them is a communal meal and nothing else. They seek militantly a new church. There are places were this claim seems to be paranoid make-believe. There are other places where is it undeniable fact. The gift of discernment is key for any Catholic. Benedict XVI has spoken of the enemies within the church, some of us on occasion find ourselves looking at the whites of their eyes.<br />Abuse, sacrilege and apostasy happens. Let's pray for all clergy. If you'd like you can also hope that all clergy will be drawn to the extraordinary form of the Mass.carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05789872090226146827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-53520572521911760612012-09-18T01:54:25.843-04:002012-09-18T01:54:25.843-04:00I agree with just about everything you say, especi...I agree with just about everything you say, especially about those who use the hateful phrase "Mass of All Time." As a devotee of the Byzantine church, what is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, I ask. Chopped liver?<br /><br />I've tried pointing out on a certain site that calls itself "traditional" that EVERY Eucharistic Sacrifice in EVERY authorized rite of the Church celebrated according to liturgical norms IS "the True Mass of All Time/Ages."<br /><br />But for some reason, it never appears.<br /><br />The ideas some have voiced here of reviving the Extraordinary Form in the vernacular has some advantages, but I don't think it will happen.<br /><br />As far as celebrating it in Latin entirely, would the average priest be comfortable saying prayers (as opposed to praying) in a language he does not understand? Would this not truly be the "vain repetition" Our Savior condemned?<br /><br />(Please keep in mind I'm not dismissing the Extraordinary Form as such; I'm just pointing out a great difficulty.)Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01133668737743486061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-64138744655730080132012-09-17T19:17:28.205-04:002012-09-17T19:17:28.205-04:00As someone who somewhat begrudging attends TLM mas...As someone who somewhat begrudging attends TLM mass frequently because his wife likes it, I sometimes wonder the extent that the different liturgical calendar plays in supply demand. Some regular Catholics may feel alienated about this aspect (e.g., me), and priests would likely have to extensively prepare a second homily, no?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07727642159686892325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-22833444501016807522012-09-17T09:19:50.143-04:002012-09-17T09:19:50.143-04:00Thank you so much for this, I really agree--especi...Thank you so much for this, I really agree--especially the part about rubrical complaining. Happy feast of St. Robert Bellarmine.mmatinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09904567527345152766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-10105197609329838612012-09-17T08:29:19.794-04:002012-09-17T08:29:19.794-04:00Interesting. Thanks. My guesses: it's more the...Interesting. Thanks. My guesses: it's more the hostility from old liberals still running things in many places than the real problem of rude, self-defeating trads. And, speaking of demand, the rank and file don't want to go back to Latin. (The people-smart old liberals know that and run with it, always calling it the Latin Mass to scare people away from it.) One of my stock lines is It's Not About Latin™. Have a vernacular option for doing the traditional Mass; the Anglican Use and the new ordinariates can show how. Regardless, somebody got it right: even if we who go to the traditional Mass got our way and it became the norm or at least available everywhere, and even with a vernacular option for it, a few churchgoers would love it, a few would hate it and most of the remaining churchgoers (shrinking because of the church shooting itself in the foot with the council and the bigger problem of more secularism in the bigger culture, but it also means the old liberals are dying out) would just go along with it, not caring either way.Ecgberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354592772973677609noreply@blogger.com