tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post114351578723541211..comments2023-10-21T05:40:55.660-04:00Comments on man with black hat: David L Alexanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1157940787324277992006-09-10T22:13:00.000-04:002006-09-10T22:13:00.000-04:00Just a comment on why Arlington rightly forbids fe...Just a comment on why Arlington rightly forbids female altar servers from wearing cassock and surplice. While the alb is a garment for all the baptized (the white garment received at baptism), the cassock is a male garment (the proper habit of the diocesan cleric, at least in former times). It is most definitely not a "dress" but a man's long coat with a history going back to the middle ages. For a girl to wear a cassock amounts to cross-dressing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1144245052876539702006-04-05T09:50:00.000-04:002006-04-05T09:50:00.000-04:00Excellent post David. Good reminder to me that I ...Excellent post David. Good reminder to me that I don't visit here nearly enough <BR/><BR/>Femininity, tact, reserve, grace, these are the virtues that make women and young ladies attractive. <BR/><BR/>Can't parents who want to teach their daughters to compete with boys introduce to them to wrestling or something other than the Mass? Something that I don't have to attend?M. Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628512667279950596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1144143223111338322006-04-04T05:33:00.000-04:002006-04-04T05:33:00.000-04:00We too had "knees together, hands joined" drummed ...We too had "knees together, hands joined" drummed into us. I <I>would</I> have a problem with an altar server's posture if they sat with their legs crossed though (male or female) - to me it looks rather casual and inappropriate, nevermind the clothing (or lack thereof) underneath. <BR/><BR/>I'm sorry to hear that my parish's experience is not reflected elsewhere though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1144083503190309712006-04-03T12:58:00.000-04:002006-04-03T12:58:00.000-04:00"For us, serving was never a statement, always a p...<I>"For us, serving was never a statement, always a privilege - for both male and female servers."</I><BR/><BR/>Yo... Padmez! If you and your posse can pull it off with the proper disposition, more power to y'all. Just know that's not the case in most places. That's one reason our own bishop is getting so much negative mail over it. (That, and some people love to complain, which is sad.)<BR/><BR/>As to those who "cross their legs" at the altar, the point was not the posture, but what the young lady did (or in this case, did not) have on underneath. We were always taught to sit knees together with hands folded in our lap.<BR/><BR/>Rambling is fine. By the way, interesting website. Rock on.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1144050077475936662006-04-03T03:41:00.000-04:002006-04-03T03:41:00.000-04:00Firstly, I just wanted to say that I'm here via ca...Firstly, I just wanted to say that I'm here via catholic_girl's blog. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, I wanted to say that the issues you raise with female servers (or rather the parents of female servers) has never been an issue at my home parish. I honestly don't know if girls were allowed to serve in 1994, or if a "loophole" was found before that. I started serving in 1996, probably about a year and a half after I made my First Communion and served regularly until last summer. I have served on the odd occasion since, and will probably be needed at Easter. For us, serving was <I>never</I> a statement, always a privilege - for both male and female servers. The numbers are roughly equal (perhaps there are slightly more girls, but there are slightly more girls in the parish) and there are around 60 servers. I believe that the reason that there was never a sense of "we're making a statement, we have a right to be here too" was that it was always accepted that the altar servers were both male and female. We had the most incredible sacristan, whose recent death has left a gaping hole. He always made sure that the servers understood that it was a privilege to serve, and ensured that behavious on the altar was as it should be. In fact, I only ever saw one person cross their legs - a boy - and I can tell you that he never did it again...<BR/><BR/>And all the altar servers wear albs. <BR/><BR/>Sorry for rambling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1144016192607789082006-04-02T18:16:00.000-04:002006-04-02T18:16:00.000-04:00Mio:I believe I identified the provision correctly...Mio:<BR/><BR/>I believe I identified the provision correctly. Obviously there are two methods by which female altar service can be discontinued; either at the pastor's discretion, or that of the bishop. The latter might come as the result of his own evaluation, or that of parishioners who are dismayed by the girls "taking over" at the expense of the boys, and are met with the pastor's refusal to rectify the situation. It is this particular scenario which I find unique, that a bishop can decide to remove the indulgence, whatever the pastor's wishes.<BR/><BR/>Either way, the distinction between the norm and the indulgence is upheld, as is the right of the priest to determine (within certain limitations) how he is served.<BR/><BR/>I honestly don't think most parishes in the diocese are going to adopt the practice. The generation of priests which would have supported this indulgence is passing away, and a more conservative wave of young priests is taking their place as pastors.David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1144014428927353632006-04-02T17:47:00.000-04:002006-04-02T17:47:00.000-04:00David,While there is a provision in the norms for ...David,<BR/><BR/>While there is a provision in the norms for discontinuing the use of female altar servers at a parish, it's not the provision you discuss in the "Another noteworthy provision ..." paragraph (which deals with discontinuation by the Bishop if female servers come to predominate at a parish). Instead, it's paragraph 3 of the Norms, which basically sets the same process for discontinuing them as for instituting them:<BR/><BR/><I>"If, after female altar servers have been introduced at a parish, further consultation by the pastor at a subsequent date with the pastoral council and parochial vicars and deacons (if any) indicates that the use of female servers is no longer pastorally advantageous, the use of female servers may be discontinued by the pastor. The pastor must advise the Bishop in writing of the outcome of the consultation and receive a written confirmation from the Bishop prior to the discontinuation of a policy of using female servers at parish liturgical celebrations.</I><BR/><BR/>Of course, that would be for a "formal" discontinuation as a matter of policy. Informally, each individual priest (including the pastor) has the right to not use female servers at his Masses. So as a practical matter, if all priests at a parish choose not to use female servers, the practice could end even before the formal "policy discontinuation" steps have been completed.<BR/><BR/>MioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143940179007685252006-04-01T20:09:00.000-05:002006-04-01T20:09:00.000-05:00Tony, thou hast writ:"What if a new pastor wants t...Tony, thou hast writ:<BR/><BR/><I>"What if a new pastor wants to abolish 'altar girls'? Is there a reasonable way to go about it?"</I><BR/><BR/>There is already provision for this in the local norms. See the paragraph that begins: "Another noteworthy provision involves a common challenge nationwide, where females tend to predominate the ranks of altar servers..."David L Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143830339022408532006-03-31T13:38:00.000-05:002006-03-31T13:38:00.000-05:00Thank you for that thoughtful post. Mine was a bit...Thank you for that thoughtful post. Mine was a bit more knee-jerk but the same basic idea. I think I'll email the Bishop in Lincoln, just to say "keep it up"!earthiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11022185844621299329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143778752741272682006-03-30T23:19:00.000-05:002006-03-30T23:19:00.000-05:00Jen P,I knew there was a reason I like you! (As I ...Jen P,<BR/><BR/>I knew there was a reason I like you! (As I head downstairs to do some laundry!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143743172203892972006-03-30T13:26:00.000-05:002006-03-30T13:26:00.000-05:00Now that this particular Djin has been let out of ...Now that this particular Djin has been let out of the bottle, so to speak, how do we reclaim the sanctuary without making it an indictment against the individual girls?<BR/><BR/>What if a new pastor wants to abolish "altar girls"? Is there a reasonable way to go about it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143632264579119002006-03-29T06:37:00.000-05:002006-03-29T06:37:00.000-05:00Excellent article.Excellent article.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143601628125671372006-03-28T22:07:00.000-05:002006-03-28T22:07:00.000-05:00Please don't tell me that women washed linens and ...Please don't tell me that women washed linens and that was equally respectable service. Hogwash.<BR/><BR/>The priesthood isn't open to women. God ordained that -- and I accept it. But to imply that women's domestic service is their "equal" option is a load of hooey. Domesticity has a place and it's valuable. But men can wash linens, too. Men generally DON'T do women's work precisely because it's women's work. Why wouldn't women come to find it demeaning, too?<BR/><BR/>(I do laundry, btw. But I don't like being told that my nature makes laundry an especially appropriate calling.)<BR/><BR/>JenJen Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10447330309950072384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143578961843108912006-03-28T15:49:00.000-05:002006-03-28T15:49:00.000-05:00Guess I missed that display since, as the bride, I...Guess I missed that display since, as the bride, I was seated on the altar, too ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143547505956189972006-03-28T07:05:00.000-05:002006-03-28T07:05:00.000-05:00You are exactly right when you say the issue is no...You are exactly right when you say the issue is not with the young girls serving but with their parents. These parents have abandoned the notion of humble servant and are now seeing the role of altar server as a position of celebrity which must be sought for their darling daughters. Doesn't it remind you of James and John's mother asking Jesus to make her sons his favored ones?Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13752198020371163071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3589378.post-1143518729050946342006-03-27T23:05:00.000-05:002006-03-27T23:05:00.000-05:00What did the girls make of all this? Quite honestl...<I>What did the girls make of all this? Quite honestly, I don't remember.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually I was around back then and do remember. It never occurred to me or to any of my friends that a girl could serve Mass--that a girl would want to serve Mass--since obviously that was what boys did, and since obviously it was a trial run for priestly vocations.<BR/><BR/>Carrie <BR/><BR/>Back then women served at the altar by laundering the altar linens and by cleaning the sanctuary...duties that were accepted activity for women that carried their own measure of dignity, unlike today; and duties that we knew were just as important as what servers did. Women were proud to launder the altar linens.<BR/><BR/><I>as service becomes less about what is done, and more about what is seen</I><BR/><BR/>Very perceptive. Keeping the sanctuary clean is one of those services that isn't seen but must be done by someone. Being seen in the sanctuary was not a motivator for women back in the 50s, unless it was being seen on cleaning day. Today, of course, "women's work" carries a bad connotation of inadequacy and slavery. Along with an end to sexual division of labor has come disrespect for anything that was formerly seen as activities of women exclusively.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07464076577415616807noreply@blogger.com